Post #1 Gabriel
I have seen a lot of inconsistency regarding who is a Jew. I saw a Jewish group who labeled famous half-Jews [Lenny Kravitz] and I have to ask, can you be half-Jewish? Generally this label is used for children with a Jewish father.
At the same time, can atheists still be Jews [because they are "born Jews"]? There are even "humanistic Jewish congregations". Yet despite these factors I hear many fellow Jews claim Judaism is strictly a religion.
Another interesting factor is in my world religions class we were showed a photo slide with mixed pictures depicting Jews, Slovaks, and Germans. We had to guess what ethnicity they were. Most of my class was Jewish and it so happened that we guessed all the Jews correctly [these were secular people shown so there were no kippahs, or Talits].
Also if we say that a Jew is a convert or a "person born to a Jewish mother", why don't we give our children the woman's last name. I don't think it is consistent to give a clearly Jewish surname like Goldstein to a child who by our definition "isn't Jewish".
Also what are your feelings on Kohane's. To be a Kohane it runs through the father's and only sons can be Kohanes. Technically by this standard General Wesley Clark [who's father was a Jewish Kohen] would be a Kohane but not a Jew.
Post #2 Alex replied to Gabriel
I think of it as a cell. The nucleus is a race of Jews, while the remainder of the cell is the religion. Here's my thought process:
The biblical Jews (Abraham-12 Tribes) were a race of Jews who practiced the religion of Judaism. Through modern chromosome testing, as I have mentioned in previous threads, I learned that through my paternal grandfather (male ascent), I am a Levi, and therefore of the Jewish race. However, the majority of people who call themselves Jews are not of the Hebrew race. That is because they are of the religion.
A follower of the religion follows the teachings of the Torah, although the extent to which they must do so is disputable. However, many of the Ashkenazi and Sephardic "Religion-Jews" marrying within their culture enough so that they are almost a veritable race on their own, hence your classes recognition of them.
"I don't think it is consistent to give a clearly Jewish surname like Goldstein to a child who by our definition "isn't Jewish"."
Goldstein ("gold stone" in German) applies to one who has performed a task of merit within Germany of the 18th-19th century. Silverstein was rather a separate honour, or a lesser degree of the same honour. Einstein ("one stone") was a veritable insult, although Albert may have changed international opinion on that. My point here is, although commonly applied to Jews in North America, it isn't Jewish as much as German.
Post #3 Craig replied to Gabriel
First paragraph I agree with you.
Judaism is a way of life. We have guidelines of how to live our life. It's not like in Islam where there is a certain times of the day where you pray. We have certain times when we do certain prayers. Example you can do mariv from this time to this time.
On the last names that is something we did because of the Christians who were around us. So we also took the rules for what happened to last names.
Actually I am a Kohen. Not everyone with the name Cohen is a Kohen. They have actually found a gene that around 99% of people who claim to be kohens have. www.cohen-levi.org has an article about it. The daughter of a Kohen is a Bat Kohen, and in the time of the Temple a Kohen'sdaughter who hasn't had a child could eat the Terumah (what the Kohens got because they didn't farm (busy serving in the temple, and (the tribe of Levi was not given any land (they lived in designated cities), and they needed food.
On someone with Kohen lineage who is not Jewish it's a sad fact. I feel bad for any person who has Jewish ancestry that somewhere along the way someone decided to abandon the faith. We have many great achievements under our belt (where in the ancient cultures the literacy rate was .001% in the Jewish communities the rate was 100%.
If you have anymore questions I would suggest going to www.askmoses.com. They have a knowledgeable staff of Jews who are available 24/6!
Post #4 Alex replied to Craig
"(where in the ancient cultures the literacy rate was .001% in the Jewish communities the rate was 100%."
Proof?
In any case, just because the entire Hebrew community followed the Torah doesn't necessarily mean that they could all READ it. I think 25-60 percent is a more likely guess.
Post #5 Gabriel replied to Alex
I agree with your comment. Maybe a better surname is Koshinsky, since it uses Hebrew letters to spell it out, or Cohen.
My family has Ashkenazic origins on both sides though my mothers side is Atheist Jews but my fathers side was Orthodox. If Jewry is a race [which I agree that in the context you placed it, it is] then can you "look Jewish?
Obviously the authentic claim to Israel would imply anthropological/ethnic-racial history to the land of Israel [not just religious]. Anti-Semitism I think makes the same assumption of Jewry being more racial [If you descend back to Hebrews].
Based on the isolation of the Jewish population I would claim that you can look Jewish and be ethnically Jewish in most cases, since we don't actively proselytize, and many conversions came about the 20th century I would think.
So say a persons father is as you say "racially Jewish", would they to have that claim or is it only through the mother in this case??? I just think it is an interesting manner when the term Half Jewish is used. Is that possible?
Post #6 Alex replied to Gabriel
"If Jewry is a race [which I agree that in the context you placed it, it is] then can you "look Jewish?"
Certainly. You could look like a typical Ashkenazi or Sephardic (which aren't races, but do have distinctly "Jewish" characteristics), or have Semitic features of the "Hebrews" race.
I think Israel could actually have claims to the land using both. The anthropological reasons we all know, but the Torah does mention multiple times that G-d committed himself to an agree with Abraham and his descendants (through Isaac...) that they would have that land.
Half Jewish could get very complicated indeed. If you go by my theories, half-Jewish can only be strictly applied to the racial Jews, and not the religion (as you can't "half" follow Judaism...). However, many people believe that you are Jewish through you maternal lineage. Depends on personal belief, I suppose.
Post #7 Dovid
I'd like to recommend this excellent informative book on the subject by a great Jewish scholar which answers the question in a thoroughly scholarly and clear manner:
www.whoisajew.com
Post #8 Rambler
A Jew is proof of G-d. A Jew is someone who can say that they are a direct descendant from those people who witnessed the revelation of G-d at Mount Sinai. This only passes through the mother because when one was in the womb, they were physically part of their mother, and so they are really an extension of them. A Jew is a physical extension of the people who witnessed G-d. The fact that a Jew exists is the greatest proof that G-d told the world that He wants us to be just and moral. Because if the revelation at Sinai didn't exist, then I wouldn't exist either.
Being a kohen isn't about who you are. It's about a job. The job of working in the Holy Temple. That job is passed on from father to son, just as many professions traditionally are.
Although Judaism is both a religion and a culture, neither of those are what make you Jewish. Though usually they help you to fulfill your role of letting the world know about G-d. Judaism is certainly not a race, as there are Jews of every race, although it is a nationality or ethnicity in the sense that we have a national history and identity.
Post #9 Alex replied to Rambler
There are Jews of every race, but there is also a specific Semitic race of Jews (those who left Egypt and fought the '-ites' and were exiled by the Babylonians).
Post #10 Rambler replied to Alex
Perhaps, but it differs greatly from the common meaning of the word. For example, Israel could not in that sense be called a Jewish State.
Post #11 Alex replied to Rambler
Well Israel actually in that sense is the Jewish state as well, as quite literally all the Jews of the world, from the Ashkenazim and Sephardim to the Ethiopian and Khazar Jews, and the Semitic Jews, all live together there, comprising of about a third of the total Jewish population (5 million out of 14 million?)
Thursday, January 24, 2008
Wednesday, January 16, 2008
Intermarriage
Post #1 Dana
Is it okay to marry a Non-Jew?
Post #2 Ely replied to Dana's post
Why would you want to?
Post #3 Alex replied to Dana's post
Very highly discouraged. According to the Torah, you're not supposed to "lust for other gods" and G-d's solution is to marry within the faith. Maybe the special someone will convert to Judaism, which is acceptable, I think...
Post #4 Dana
But assuming that the kids will be raised Jewish, is it okay to fall in love with a gentile? Is it moral?
Post #5 Matt
Judaism runs through the mother.
Post #6 Jason
It's not an issue of morality, but of true compatibility. If your central ideas on life are not compatible, how do you expect to have children, and raise them in such confusion?
Post #7 Alex replied to Dana's post
Yeah, it might be confusing for the kids. Being half-Jewish might cause them to pick-and-choose or even abandon Judaism altogether. Even if you both agree the kids will be Jewish, they may still desire the father's' faith
Post #8 Melanie
Although I love the culture of Judaism, I'm atheist and think that people should be allowed to choose their religion. I personally would have no problem marrying a goy if I were in love with him--because love isn't about race/religion/ethnicity etc.
Post #9 Arielle
Even though many people say that they will still raise their children as Jews if they happen to intermarry, somewhere down the family tree the Jewish identity will be lost. More Jews have been lost through intermarriage than those killed during the holocaust.
Post #10 Alex replied to Arielle's post
I think they call it the silent or something along those lines
Post #11 Rebecca replied to Ely's post
Yeah.
Post #12 Alex
This thread should be deleted if there's another one covering the same topic and having more posts.
Post #13 Jennifer
It's fine. My mom isn't Jewish, my dad is, they raised me Jewish and its totally fine. Love = love = love. Screw ancient rules.
Post #14 Sara
In a nutshell, you may not care about Judaism now but statistics how that after you get married and have kids you will care once again. When Christina wants to baptize your son you won't want it etc. Read this article.
Post #15 Jarred replied to Jennifer's post
Well technically you're not Jewish under Jewish law and that is the problem with intermarriage. It makes things more complicated in the long run.
Post #16 Craig replied to Dana's post
How can you guarantee that?
Do not intermarry. "Don't give your daughter to their son and don't take their daughter for your son: He will cause your decendents to turn away from Hashem and worship other gods"
-Deut. 7:3-4
It's much easier, and much more effective to build a relationship with someone who shares a common history and experiences. Amongst children of intermarriage only 18% are being raised Jewish, and even members of that small group are celabrating Christmas more than they are celebrating Passover. 65% go to church, only 19% go to synogague. Over half of all intermarriages end in divorce.
WWW.WHYDATEJEWISH.COM
If you go to this site you can get a FREE book that will discuss the pros to marring Jewish. It's free so you can only gain something from it.
Post #17 Craig replied to Jennifer's post
There are also some rules that are really old that are still very very relevant.
Thou shall not kill
Thou shall not covet
Thou shall not bear false witness
Honor your father and mother
Thou shall not steal
Etc.
We do a lot to save endangered animals. Why not save a people who have been around for 3000 years, gave us such great laws, started Monotheisim, have made so many lives better (doctors, inventions, processes). Isn't that something worth saving?
Post #185 Rambler
It is well known that marriages today are at risk. The divorce rate is on the rise. It is hard for two different people to live their lives together. Their life is no longer just their own to do as they see fit. So many of the choices they make in life must now be made together. For many people, although they may like each other very much, their views are just not compatible and so they have to split up.
To make it work, we must find a partner who's core values, the view of the world with which they were raised, matches our own. For a Jew, this means we need to find another Jew. Even for someone who is not currently very religious, they need to find a spouse who sees the world from the Jewish perspective as they do. Someone who, perhaps even despite themselves, has a Jewish identity. We have been raised to think of being a Jew as a basic part of who we are and how we fit into the world. Only with someone who shares that most basic world view can one make a life together.
Some Jews may approve of a particular action that Israel takes, and other Jews may criticize it, but they are both talking about what we are doing not what they are doing. Non-Jews may just say, "Why do I care about something going on at the other side of the world. It has nothing to do with me. That's them not me." This is because we view the world from a different vantage point than others do. The vantage point of the Jew. Like it or not, the world will treat us the way that Jews are treated.
Being Jewish is only one of many important things to look for in a spouse, but it is an important one. If you don't even try to find a partner with whom it might work, you risk becoming just another unfortunate statistic.
Is it okay to marry a Non-Jew?
Post #2 Ely replied to Dana's post
Why would you want to?
Post #3 Alex replied to Dana's post
Very highly discouraged. According to the Torah, you're not supposed to "lust for other gods" and G-d's solution is to marry within the faith. Maybe the special someone will convert to Judaism, which is acceptable, I think...
Post #4 Dana
But assuming that the kids will be raised Jewish, is it okay to fall in love with a gentile? Is it moral?
Post #5 Matt
Judaism runs through the mother.
Post #6 Jason
It's not an issue of morality, but of true compatibility. If your central ideas on life are not compatible, how do you expect to have children, and raise them in such confusion?
Post #7 Alex replied to Dana's post
Yeah, it might be confusing for the kids. Being half-Jewish might cause them to pick-and-choose or even abandon Judaism altogether. Even if you both agree the kids will be Jewish, they may still desire the father's' faith
Post #8 Melanie
Although I love the culture of Judaism, I'm atheist and think that people should be allowed to choose their religion. I personally would have no problem marrying a goy if I were in love with him--because love isn't about race/religion/ethnicity etc.
Post #9 Arielle
Even though many people say that they will still raise their children as Jews if they happen to intermarry, somewhere down the family tree the Jewish identity will be lost. More Jews have been lost through intermarriage than those killed during the holocaust.
Post #10 Alex replied to Arielle's post
I think they call it the silent or something along those lines
Post #11 Rebecca replied to Ely's post
Yeah.
Post #12 Alex
This thread should be deleted if there's another one covering the same topic and having more posts.
Post #13 Jennifer
It's fine. My mom isn't Jewish, my dad is, they raised me Jewish and its totally fine. Love = love = love. Screw ancient rules.
Post #14 Sara
In a nutshell, you may not care about Judaism now but statistics how that after you get married and have kids you will care once again. When Christina wants to baptize your son you won't want it etc. Read this article.
Post #15 Jarred replied to Jennifer's post
Well technically you're not Jewish under Jewish law and that is the problem with intermarriage. It makes things more complicated in the long run.
Post #16 Craig replied to Dana's post
How can you guarantee that?
Do not intermarry. "Don't give your daughter to their son and don't take their daughter for your son: He will cause your decendents to turn away from Hashem and worship other gods"
-Deut. 7:3-4
It's much easier, and much more effective to build a relationship with someone who shares a common history and experiences. Amongst children of intermarriage only 18% are being raised Jewish, and even members of that small group are celabrating Christmas more than they are celebrating Passover. 65% go to church, only 19% go to synogague. Over half of all intermarriages end in divorce.
WWW.WHYDATEJEWISH.COM
If you go to this site you can get a FREE book that will discuss the pros to marring Jewish. It's free so you can only gain something from it.
Post #17 Craig replied to Jennifer's post
There are also some rules that are really old that are still very very relevant.
Thou shall not kill
Thou shall not covet
Thou shall not bear false witness
Honor your father and mother
Thou shall not steal
Etc.
We do a lot to save endangered animals. Why not save a people who have been around for 3000 years, gave us such great laws, started Monotheisim, have made so many lives better (doctors, inventions, processes). Isn't that something worth saving?
Post #185 Rambler
It is well known that marriages today are at risk. The divorce rate is on the rise. It is hard for two different people to live their lives together. Their life is no longer just their own to do as they see fit. So many of the choices they make in life must now be made together. For many people, although they may like each other very much, their views are just not compatible and so they have to split up.
To make it work, we must find a partner who's core values, the view of the world with which they were raised, matches our own. For a Jew, this means we need to find another Jew. Even for someone who is not currently very religious, they need to find a spouse who sees the world from the Jewish perspective as they do. Someone who, perhaps even despite themselves, has a Jewish identity. We have been raised to think of being a Jew as a basic part of who we are and how we fit into the world. Only with someone who shares that most basic world view can one make a life together.
Some Jews may approve of a particular action that Israel takes, and other Jews may criticize it, but they are both talking about what we are doing not what they are doing. Non-Jews may just say, "Why do I care about something going on at the other side of the world. It has nothing to do with me. That's them not me." This is because we view the world from a different vantage point than others do. The vantage point of the Jew. Like it or not, the world will treat us the way that Jews are treated.
Being Jewish is only one of many important things to look for in a spouse, but it is an important one. If you don't even try to find a partner with whom it might work, you risk becoming just another unfortunate statistic.
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